GvG Pressure Build

Abandon hope all ye who enter here...

GvG Pressure Build

Postby Mori » Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:59 pm

I've been promising a fully formulated build for so long I doubt anyone thought it would ever emerge. But here it is!

The build has three strong focuses: inflicting degeneration (via conditions and hexes) on the enemy, suppressing the enemy's energy, and removing conditions and hexes from ourselves.


Character 1: Axe Warrior/Necro
Warrior/Necro: Axe 11+1+3/Tactics 12+1/Strength 6+1
Eviscerate*, "Fear Me!", Plague Touch, Distracting Blow, Swift Chop, Executioner's Strike, Bull's Strike, Res Sig

Character 2: Sword Warrior/Ranger
Warrior/Monk: Sword 11+1+3/Tactics 12+1/Strength 6+1/Wilderness Survival 2
Sever Artery, Gash, Savage Slash, Final Thrust, "Fear Me!", Apply Poison, "Victory Is Mine!"*, Res Sig

Character 3: Flag Runner Ranger/Monk
Ranger/Monk: Wilderness Survival 11+1+3/Marksmanship 10+1/Expertise 10+1
Apply Poison, Debilitating Shot, Oath Shot*, Storm Chaser, Dodge, Troll Unguent, Purge Conditions, Res Sig

Character 4: Protection Monk
Monk/Mesmer: Protection Prayers 12+1+3/Divine Favour 12+1/Inspiration Magic 3
Aegis, Protective Spirit, Restore Condition*, Holy Veil, Reversal of Fortune, Energy Tap, Divine Healing, Shielding Hands

Character 5: Healing Monk
Monk/X: Healing Prayers 12+1+3/Divine Favour 12+1/Smiting Prayers 3+1
Healing Seed, Word of Healing*, Healing Touch, Infuse Health, Holy Veil, Divine Intervention, Smite Hex, Divine Intervention

Character 6: Boon/OoB Monk
Monk/Necro: Protection Prayers 10+3/Divine Favour 10+1+1/Blood Magic 10/Healing Prayers 5+1
Offering of Blood*, Reversal of Fortune, Healing Touch, Holy Veil, Guardian, Mend Condition, Divine Boon, Shielding Hands

Character 7: Energy Denial Mesmer
Mesmer/Elementalist: Domination 11+1+3/Inspiration 10+1/Fast Casting 10+1
Mantra of Signets, Signet of Weariness, Shame, Panic*, Energy Burn, Power Leak, Power Drain, Glyph of Lesser Energy

Character 8: Virulence/Epidemic Necro
Necro/Mesmer: Death 11+1+3/Curses 10+1/Soul Reaping 10+1
Virulence*, Suffering, Death Nova, Faintheartedness, Epidemic, Soul Feast, Putrid Explosion, Res Sig


Questions or comments welcome. I've thought this out pretty carefully but I haven't tested the individual builds for effectiveness and energy management issues yet. Note, of course, that if you take any of the individual builds into the random arenas you'll probably get your arse kicked and/or not be very effective - the whole build is designed to work together synergistically like an Ian Boyd wet dream. But it might be good practice with using the skills to maximum effect.

Want to try running this on Monday?
Last edited by Mori on Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:57 pm, edited 9 times in total.
User avatar
Mori
Organisational god
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:37 pm
Location: House of Wajn

Postby Elle » Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:10 pm

I think the skills you have listed for the prot monk might be a little over-ambitious in terms of energy cost. Aegis is 15, divine healing is 10 and prot spirit is also 10. Without any means of gaining energy, the expensive skills will hardly be used. I have found this out through experience :/ Even with cheaper skills and something to gain energy, I often find I only ever have enough to remove conditions and to spam a few RoFs. I will bow to your wisdom and try it out though (unless ofcourse someone else wants to be a prot monk).

Also I have found shielding hands recharges too slowly to be of much use in pvp.
Image
User avatar
Elle
Get out of my car!
 
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:40 am
Location: Hopefully in bed.

Postby Mori » Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:24 pm

Hmm..

I'm very keen to have Aegis in there. Ideally both prot monks would carry it and alternate casting it.. but I decided the energy cost would be a bit much for the boon prot.

Divine Healing is just space filler here, but can be bloody helpful in the right situations. Shielding Hands is space filler too - cheap and quick to cast. You have enough spammables to keep you going while it recharges.

Prot Spirit is something that you should only rarely be using anyway (against hammer warriors and air elementalists basically), and can probably be dropped; most spike builds, for example, focus on doing lots of little bits of damage in a short space of time, not a few huge chunks, which makes prot spirit more or less useless against it.

Basically, if you want to swap out DH or prot spirit for something you consider more useful, feel free. I didn't want to put Divine Intervention in the build twice because more than likely it'd get cast on the same person at the same time anyway.
User avatar
Mori
Organisational god
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:37 pm
Location: House of Wajn

Postby Infinity » Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:36 pm

Character 2:

There's a hell of a lot of hex removals in this build. Every single monk has one. This warrior shouldn't need it and could therefore change secondary, as its the only monk skill being used (not even mending you noob).

I would switch to a W/R and put in throw dirt. Unless ive missed it i cant see anyone else with a blinding skill. An extra negative condition helps as this is a ViM warrior. Or even apply poison or something of that ilk.


Character 7:

According to Rhay, Panic is a pile of rather expensive rubbish. 25 energy is a hell of a lot considering this character is relying on one interrupt skill to get back any energy. I would substitute Panic for E-Drain for energy management.
Lyssophobia - Fear of rabies or of becoming insane
Image
User avatar
Infinity
Strange and Mysterious
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:05 pm
Location: in a pit of abject sorrow

Postby Mori » Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:50 pm

Character 2:

Good idea. I put remove hex on the warriors so they can take off spiteful spirit and suchlike before it kills them, but I guess they can just as easily ctrl-click the hex (if they even notice it).

Character 7:

Panic is very very expensive, but I honestly don't think it's rubbish. Rhay tends to like being able to see the effects of his actions, and since all Panic does is reduce people's energy regen, there's not much to see there. One possibility would be to give this character an elementalist secondary and have em take Glyph of Lesser Energy instead of, say, res signet.

(I'll edit the original post above once possible changes to the build have been thoroughly discussed.)
User avatar
Mori
Organisational god
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:37 pm
Location: House of Wajn

Postby khaz » Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:17 pm

After that run last night, i'd recommend the following for character 1 and yes this was my build last night.

Strength: 8
Axe Mastery: 14 (With sup axe rune)
Tactics: 13 (With minor tactics rune)

Eviscerate
Executioner's Strike
Swift Chop (Can't evade or block this, and if you do, you inflict extra damage AND deep wound! Win!)
Bull's Strike (KD on kiting/fleeing casters)
Axe Rake/Healing Signet/Plague Touch/Bonetti's/Sprint/Griffon Sweep (I kept swapping around here to see what worked best)
Distracting Blow
Fear me! (Awesome stuff this, with 2 warriors using this, the energy denial will be huge)
Res Signet



Replace disrupting chop with distracting blow. You don't have to wait for adrenaline to fill up as it's an energy based skill. It's a LOT faster (3/4th of a second casting time if I remember right) and it disrupts adjacent targets to. Admittedly it doesnt disable skills for 20 seconds but quite frankly the excess amount of disrupting you can do with this it's a good trade of. Of course you could take both if you really wanted to.

Replace Berserker stance with bull's strike. The amount of kiting monks do these days is just annoying. Bull's strike is the best anti-kiting skill a warrior has (For a non hammer warrior anyway). It's energy based as well so no waiting for adrenaline either. They kite, you strike, they fall down. Win.

In place of remove hex i'd recommend condition removals. The point of the warriors is for the monks to focus on them the least. Condition removals are more imporant to a warrior personally. All it takes is a cripple or a weakness or a blind to disable a warrior without condition removal. Alternatively, you can put in axe rake to inflict cripple. I even tried healing signet, sprint, griffon's sweep and bonetti's here. All with varying degrees of success. Healing signet fast proved useless because of 3 monks, sprint was sometimes needed, sometimes wasn't and griffon's sweep was very occasional. Usually used in a ward of melee against the casting ele. But that wasn't always the case. And bonetti's just wasn't needed as nobody ever attacks the warriors. :/


About warriors in general, a lot of GvG matches i've observed have tactics heavy martyr W/Mos. With their high hp and healing signets, w/mos makes ideal martyr users. So ranger traps are essentially rendered useless this way. If possible one of the warriors could do this? Especially if we get pushed back to our base, holding them would require efficient removal of conditions for the party's benefit.
khaz
As gay as a boxful of monkeys
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:07 pm

Postby Mori » Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:56 pm

Have made a few changes based on the discussion so far (to characters 1, 2 and 7). The monks are now solely responsible for hex removal, while the sword warrior uses Apply Poison (5 second duration, but that hardly matters given the speed of a sword attack) to keep his target under pressure and give him an extra boost to his "Victory Is Mine!". The mesmer now uses Glyph of Lesser Energy before Panic to keep his energy usage within reasonable bounds.
User avatar
Mori
Organisational god
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:37 pm
Location: House of Wajn

Postby Fox » Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:30 pm

khaz wrote:Condition removals are more imporant to a warrior personally. All it takes is a cripple or a weakness or a blind to disable a warrior without condition removal


khaz wrote:About warriors in general, a lot of GvG matches i've observed have tactics heavy martyr W/Mos....If possible one of the warriors could do this?
Fox
Stupider like a FOX!
Stupider like a FOX!
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:31 pm
Location: Here, There, But Mostly There.

Postby Mori » Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:36 pm

I think the idea is that the casting of Martyr is called and immediately followed by Purge Conditions, either by the warrior or one of the monks.
User avatar
Mori
Organisational god
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:37 pm
Location: House of Wajn

Postby khaz » Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:56 pm

Fox wrote:
khaz wrote:Condition removals are more imporant to a warrior personally. All it takes is a cripple or a weakness or a blind to disable a warrior without condition removal


khaz wrote:About warriors in general, a lot of GvG matches i've observed have tactics heavy martyr W/Mos....If possible one of the warriors could do this?


If a warrior does take martyr, the point is we have healing signet and/or purge conditions. Fool!

:P
khaz
As gay as a boxful of monkeys
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:07 pm

Postby Fox » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:14 pm

Purge Conditions is 30 second recharge
Martyr is 10 seconds recharge

if you're against condition spam you're going to want to spam martyr more than just every 30 seconds in which case you'll be (hopefully) maintained by a friendly monk with Mend Ailment. If you doubled up with Draw conditions, I Will Survive!, Endure/Defy Pain you could make a handy walking sick bag but as Khaz himself states pretty much makes you pointless in the damage stakes.
Fox
Stupider like a FOX!
Stupider like a FOX!
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:31 pm
Location: Here, There, But Mostly There.

Postby Mori » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:16 pm

Purge Conditions is 20 sec recharge, not 30.
User avatar
Mori
Organisational god
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:37 pm
Location: House of Wajn

Postby khaz » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:25 pm

Fox wrote:Purge Conditions is 30 second recharge
Martyr is 10 seconds recharge

if you're against condition spam you're going to want to spam martyr more than just every 30 seconds in which case you'll be (hopefully) maintained by a friendly monk with Mend Ailment. If you doubled up with Draw conditions, I Will Survive!, Endure/Defy Pain you could make a handy walking sick bag but as Khaz himself states pretty much makes you pointless in the damage stakes.


Healing Signet gives 125 hp (Or 120? It's there abouts anyway) at 13 tactics. More than enough to keep a condition death at bay as it recharges every 4 seconds. A martyr warrior is more of a tanker/damage absorber for the team than damage dealer anyhow. When he's in attack mode I doubt he can keep up the martyr use.
khaz
As gay as a boxful of monkeys
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:07 pm

Postby Fox » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:41 pm

I was reading from an outdated website it would appear for the recharge, as for healing sigs and so on I'm just saying that it's going to impede a warrior's abilty to attack effectively which means either designing him as a support role to begin with, or losing the benefits of martyr when he's in the fray. just something to keep in mind when deciding whether to take martyr or not.


On a side note Martyr + Illusion of haste could be useful as it will target the cripple condition and remove it to allow kiting, but then that isn't possible for a Wa/Mo.
Fox
Stupider like a FOX!
Stupider like a FOX!
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:31 pm
Location: Here, There, But Mostly There.

Postby khaz » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:50 pm

Yes, it is a suggestion but at the moment just that.

But my observation of GvG matches shows that its a tactic with value. A tactits (teehee) warrior will happily stop attacking for a bit if he has martyr to neutralise a condition heavy offensive. And healing signet makes this cheap as chips as it requires no energy and can be cast twice in between martyrs.
khaz
As gay as a boxful of monkeys
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:07 pm

Postby Fox » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:53 pm

Unless the enemy picks up on your cunning tactic and interrupts your healing signet, especially if they disable for 20 plus seconds.
Fox
Stupider like a FOX!
Stupider like a FOX!
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:31 pm
Location: Here, There, But Mostly There.

Postby khaz » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:53 pm

I said it was a suggestion only. :p

And besides, if you're martyring. Even a warrior wouldn't sit in the middle of the fray. He'd sit behind the casters, close to the monks for rof spam.
khaz
As gay as a boxful of monkeys
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:07 pm

Postby Fox » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:56 pm

Well, it'll all come down to playing style and positioning. knowing when to pull back without harming your offence more than you're aiding your defence by martyring.
Fox
Stupider like a FOX!
Stupider like a FOX!
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:31 pm
Location: Here, There, But Mostly There.

Postby Mori » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:57 pm

*wonders if the above counts as a thread hijack yet*
User avatar
Mori
Organisational god
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:37 pm
Location: House of Wajn

Postby Fox » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:00 pm

I shall post my build comments once i return to my abode!
Fox
Stupider like a FOX!
Stupider like a FOX!
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:31 pm
Location: Here, There, But Mostly There.

Postby Rhayader » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:48 pm

on build 7
i would just like to suggest mantra of inscriptions instead of mantra of signets. since it lasts longer and its more effective with such a "high" inspiration.
panic felt rubish to me mostly becuz i almost didnt have enough energy to cast it. making me use it only one or twice during the match, wich is ridiculous considering thats an elite skill. i supose the signet could work. ill have to practice more with it since im not used to signets

on the martyr though, i saw it being used by me/mo a couple of times, since they are in the back. unfortunatly, mesmers are sometimes the first ones to get targeted. last time i felt the heat on me, i must have pissed off some monks.

oh and another thing. NO ETHER LORD??? why man? oh why??
Last edited by Rhayader on Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
Rhayader
The silent type
 
Posts: 1303
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:30 pm
Location: Nightmare Land

Postby Mori » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:10 am

If using Mantra of Inscriptions (which may be a good idea - it's something I hadn't thought of) then you could consider replacing Power Drain with Leech Signet perhaps. You get less energy back, but it disrupts anything (including res signets), not just spells.. and with mantra of inscriptions running it'd only take 24 seconds to recharge, not 45. That'd be your call in the end, though.
User avatar
Mori
Organisational god
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:37 pm
Location: House of Wajn

Postby Infinity » Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:38 am

How do monks 4 and 5 get energy back?
Lyssophobia - Fear of rabies or of becoming insane
Image
User avatar
Infinity
Strange and Mysterious
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:05 pm
Location: in a pit of abject sorrow

Postby Mori » Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:45 am

I hardly ever play monks with energy retrieval methods other than their natural regeneration, so I'm not too good at designing builds that do work that way. Any suggestions that don't take up their elite slots? 4 could drop prot spirit, healing hands or divine healing, and 5 could drop one of the hex removals.
User avatar
Mori
Organisational god
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:37 pm
Location: House of Wajn

Postby Varda » Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:46 am

We don't.

5 doens't really need it much, unless there's energy denial going around (as it can rely on 5 energy skills for the most part) but Elle expressed some concern over the 4's energy management... Perhaps by diverting some points into inspiration and using inspired hex?

Edit: There was talk of having a blood ritual thrown in somewhere, but nothing came out of it.
Varda
Yaoi obsessive
 
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:48 pm
Location: Wishing I was somewhere else.

Postby Elle » Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:56 am

I have started taking a mesmer skill that gains me energy, but I can't remember which it is. I find it difficult when we are losing, and when there are lots of nasty mesmers around, so it can be useful.
Image
User avatar
Elle
Get out of my car!
 
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:40 am
Location: Hopefully in bed.

Postby Mori » Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:44 pm

After some discussion, I've put energy tap on the protection monk. Extra energy denial can't go amiss, and the gain is enough to be useful even at 3 inspiration magic.
User avatar
Mori
Organisational god
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:37 pm
Location: House of Wajn

Postby Rhayader » Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:11 pm

i think its a bit too slow, and the gain isnt that much with energy tap. most i've seen a lot of monks useing channeling. personlly i dont like it very much, but perhaps u would like to try it out on a practice session.

to my undestanding it seems that we arent relying on heavy dmg, but on continuous dmg. i believe there is a reason to see so many spike builds these days. u need to kill a target before the monks can heal it. im afraid that the oponent monks might be able to deal with the degen and we might end up on a stalemate. perhaps ur relying too much on nergy degen?
Image
User avatar
Rhayader
The silent type
 
Posts: 1303
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:30 pm
Location: Nightmare Land

Postby Mori » Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:24 pm

That's the sort of thing that will only be determined by repeated testing :)
User avatar
Mori
Organisational god
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:37 pm
Location: House of Wajn

Postby Elle » Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:25 pm

I tried channeling rhay, but you need to be really close to the enemies to get any energy off them, and I prefer to be at the back hiding.
Image
User avatar
Elle
Get out of my car!
 
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:40 am
Location: Hopefully in bed.

Next

Return to GvG

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron